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miha
Advanced Member

3628 Posts

Member since 05/05/2003

Posted - 11/05/2005 : 17:53:15

Sjeo sam u sjenu i poceo pisati esej koji sam obecao. Ladim jaja ovako i onako i za to vreme slobodno razmišljam gde poceti i kojim stilom, dal da napišem znanstveno ili radije literarno, možda da krenem ispocetka ili da na pocetku stavim reference sa kraja? Ima puno referentnog materijala, sve nekih slika, ogromnih, pa moram još prouciti nešto u vezi kako se optimalno postavlja slika na forum, a bilo bi najbolje jer mi se ne da pisati, da stavim prvo slike pa poslije ostalo, kad napišem. Razmišljam sigurno bi trebalo poceti sa nekim uvodom, da bi citalac mogao odnekle poceti, skoro sam sto posto da se od samih slika nece razumeti poenta. Ali nemam uvod još. A da krenem prvo sa naslovom onda, koji bi bio naslov ovog teksta, nisam još smislio, ok, za pocetak tu je neki radni naslov, privremeni a poslije vidjecemo. Ovako cemo, lepo i primitivno:

DOCRTAVANJE FAKIRA SUMABATRE

A sad na brzinu što nas ceka:
U uvodu bice razjašnjeno i na široko opisano ko i što je bio fakir Sumabatra (engl. fuckir Summa-bathra). U nastavku uvoda rešena ce biti svih 5 pitanja u vezi docrtavanja koja na engleskom pocinju na slovo W. To su: what, where, when, who, why. I pitanje how. Pitanje how (kako) biti ce podrobnije objašnjeno i objasniti ce sve u vezi sa procesom graficke pripreme za tisak kakva je bila pre informaticke revolucije, dakle za vreme kad je štampan pomenuti strip. U brzini receno, bilo je to vreme kad se svaka strana pre štampe stavljala na metalnu, kasnije plasticnu plocu i arhivirala sa staticnom kamerom, po kojoj su blueprints dobili naziv stats. Posle uvoda ide sredina. U sredini ce se najviše pažnje posvetiti jednom od gornjih pitanja, koje gore nece biti dovoljno razjašnjeno. Nikad se ne može do kraja nešto objasniti pa ce ovaj srednji dio biti skracen ili produžen po potrebi ili kako bi slovenci rekli, poslije nužde.
Sva pomenuta poglavlja bice stavljena ovde po proizvoljnom redosledu kako mi se cefne.

A sad malo slikovnog materijala koji bi trebao ici na kraju a evo ga ovde na pocetku. Napomena: tema je ozbiljna i neprimerna za mladje od 33 godine.

docrtani dio

original

original + docrtani dio

nastavice se...

Edited by - miha on 11/05/2005 18:02:43

sdragan@
Senior Member

Western Sahara
1780 Posts

Member since 01/05/2005

Posted - 11/05/2005 : 18:10:05

Gde je poenta u svemu tome?
Kome smeta takav detalj?
Kako to utice na plimu i oseku Japanskog mora?
Sta o tom slucaju misli Sveta stolica?

CortoMaltese
Average Member

Croatia
789 Posts

Member since 16/03/2003

Posted - 11/05/2005 : 20:03:38

quote:
Originally posted by sdragan@

Kome smeta takav detalj?

Svakom normalnom tako nesta bi trebalo smetati.

sdragan@
Senior Member

Western Sahara
1780 Posts

Member since 01/05/2005

Posted - 11/05/2005 : 20:30:40

quote:
Originally posted by CortoMaltese

quote:
Originally posted by sdragan@

Kome smeta takav detalj?

Svakom normalnom tako nesta bi trebalo smetati.

Ja kada citam strip ja se tako opustam od svakodnevnog zivota nikad mi ne bi palo napamet da listam stranice i trazim greske.Naravno da gresaka ima i bice ih ubuduce ali da li su te greske toliko vredne da bi se pisali eseji o njima i pricale horor price?!!!

marlowe
Advanced Member

Serbia
4279 Posts

Member since 24/09/2002

Posted - 11/05/2005 : 20:39:59

u celoj toj prici o dnevnikovim tehnickim i izdavackim greskama treba imati u vidu kontekst vremena. to je bilo pre nekoliko decenija, i cinjenica da tada nije nikom smetalo puno znaci. u to vreme nije bilo ni interneta, ni originala. ti stripovi su izlazili u zemlji s odredjenim drustvenim uredjenjem i strip je imao status kakav je imao.
s druge strane treba pogledati i kakva je bila aktuelnost dnevnikovih izdanja, uostalom izdanja svih izdavaca tog vremena. koliki je tada bio yaostatak za inostranom produkcijom, kada su stizali novi stripovi/likovi? o tome treba malo razmisliti.
ove price o tehnickih i uredjivackim gafovima meni su relevantne otprilike kao da sada neko naveliko raspravlja o patikama ili farmericama koje su se tada nosile, i poredi ih sa danasnjim. kako su samo bile nekvalitetne! prosto neverovatno.

___________
"In my Havana cabana I'll eat something sweet like banana..."

TORQUE
Senior Member

Croatia
2781 Posts

Member since 27/04/2005

Posted - 11/05/2005 : 20:56:12

Jedino kaj smeta je loša povezanost originala i docrtanog djela!
Vidi se di je prijelaz!
Osobno mi docrtani djelovi ne smetaju!

I GOT NEWS FOR YOU PAL,YOU AINT LEADING BUT TWO THINGS RIGHT NOW:JACK AND SHIT!!
AND JACK LEFT TOWN!

miha
Advanced Member

3628 Posts

Member since 05/05/2003

Posted - 11/05/2005 : 22:03:07

Dragane ne brini, može se meni pisati i esej ako mi se piše, nego jesi cuo ti ikad za prolog? E pa razlika
izmedu prologa i epiloga je u tome što poenta dolazi u epilogu. A ovo je prolog. Ne može se prvo smijati
pa posle ispricati vic. Jer nema poente dok smo tu gde smo sada, uostalom malo strpljivosti ne bi ti
bilo naodmet pošto nisam još pripremio sav materijal koji imam u pripremi, a kažu ništa ne ide brže
od brzine svetlosti, ja imam samo deset prstiju za kucanje...

Medütim, dok cekam sam sebe da napišem sedeci nastavak, objasnicu, kako gledati na stvar,
to jest na postavljena pitanja na pravi nacin.

Pitanje kome smeta takav detalj. To pitanje je postavljeno vrlo generalno. Gnjavim, ali to pitanje
bi trebali preskociti za sada u tom generalnom obliku, jer nešto tu vec znamo, znamo da ima ljudi kojima
smeta docrtavanje, da ima ljudi kojima smeta rezanje, da ima onih kojima smeta i docrtavanje i rezanje
i da ima onih kojima ne smeta nijedno blablabla. Ti ljudi i mišljenja nisu stalni, to jest menjaju se i
ljudi i njihov odnos do odredenog pitanja i mi jednostavno nemamo vremena da se izjašnjavamo na ovom topiku
oko tog pitanja. Tim pitanjem zato ne bih se bavio jer je onako, ne sasvim relevantno, ne sasvim
perspektivno, i ne sasvim ekonomicno po naše vreme. Možda jednog dana se pozabavimo tim pitanjem u jednoj
anketi, a ne sada. Naime, moramo rašcistiti jednu stvar, a to je da li je docrtani dio ispravan ili neispravan.
To je ono pravo pitanje, molim ništa generalno i uopceno ne bi smeli dopustiti nego bi morali uvažiti samo
ovakva, koncizna i precizirana jednom recju ekzaktna naucno neoboriva pitanja kao što je ovo. Nazvacemo
ovo Prvo pitanje.

A da bi odgovorili da li je docrtani deo u ovom slucaju ispravan, moramo jednostavno odgovoriti na jedno
drugo pitanje, a to je da li su rendžeri vidjeli Sumabatru u pustinji ili nisu. Uf ala sam zakomplicirao, nadam
se da vam je išta jasno u ovom nespretnom izlaganju. Meni na trenutke baš i nije ali što se može kad volim da
pišem brže nego što razmišljam. Dobro, onda, kad budemo odgovorili na to pitanje moci cemo reci konacno, imamo
odgovor na prvo pitanje, gde smo ono stali... ok... dobro pogledajte sliku. Proucite je. Na slici su vidljivi
Ibrahim, Beleven i Teler, a Sumabatra je vidljiv djelomicno, na jednoj slici da, a na drugoj hmmm... pitanje...
da li je Sumabatra vidljiv prostim okom? Saznacemo kasnije da ni Ibrahim ni O'Hara nisu vidjeli Sumabatru,
jedino se Teleru i Belevenu ucinilo da su ga vidili što je lepo vidljivo ako pogledate priloženi slikovni materijal.

http://img202.echo.cx/img202/2844/407df.jpg
http://img202.echo.cx/img202/3060/426fv.jpg

slikovni materijal br. 1 (kontekst docrtavanja fakira Sumabatre)

nastavice se...

Edited by - miha on 13/05/2005 15:38:19

miha
Advanced Member

3628 Posts

Member since 05/05/2003

Posted - 12/05/2005 : 19:49:09

Cudi me kako se niko nije setio patentirat ovaj internet
svašta se može naci ovd

[qvote]

Charlie: I have been following the discussion on the whereabouts
of original Sumabatra comic material with much interest. On
this occasion, the term "stats" was used. Could
someone tell me what exactly "stats" are? Until now I
thought that this is just another (historic) term for
photocopies, but this does not seem to fit here ...

miha
Advanced Member

3628 Posts

Member since 05/05/2003

Posted - 12/05/2005 : 19:49:39

Jack: I second the motion! As far as I can tell,
"stat" is short for "photostat", for which wikipedia
redirects to the article on photocopying. My guess is
that "photostat" is a fancy way of saying "photocopy",
possibly because of the electrostatic process
used in making photocopies.

Schultz: To those wondering about the English word
"stats": it is short for "statistics".
(Your guess that it meant "photocopies" is not bad!)

miha
Advanced Member

3628 Posts

Member since 05/05/2003

Posted - 12/05/2005 : 19:50:03

Stone: Actually, what is meant *is* copies made with a Photostat machine.
Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition, Copyright (c) 2005 says
photostat: reproduction of any printed or simple black-and-white
material, such as drawings or manuscripts, made by the Photostat, a
photographic camera. While slower and more expensive than xerography ,
the process is still used where a high degree of resolution is
desired, as in publishing.

Larry: Typically the term "Stats" is short for Statistics.
It is commonly used as Baseball slang for all the scores and infomation
accumulated..
My feeling its use here is a short form of saying "Information"

Buck: Maybe I'm wrong here, but yes, 'stats' is short for statistics,
but I doubt that was the context he was referring to.
I always thought that photostats were basically photographs either in
negative or plate form that could then be used to tell the printer
and/or computer how to print the comic pages. That's my theory anyway. ;)
I now await the post that will tell me how way far off from the facts I
really am.

miha
Advanced Member

3628 Posts

Member since 05/05/2003

Posted - 12/05/2005 : 19:50:17

Paul: The terms "stat" and "photostat" have acquired certain loose
definitions over the course of time, but a true photostat "stat" is (or
more to the point these days, was) a positive image produced on
photosensitive paper utilizing a process camera or contact frame. Just
like film negatives, photostats had to be chemically processed and
dried after shooting. And just like film negatives, photostats continue
to develop even after being chemically "stopped", so that over time
they fade even if stored in lightless conditions. Western never worried
about this because their archives were maintained for the purposes of
reprinting, not preserving for posterity.

Ford: I assume "stats" is short for "stationary": The camera which is used
to shoot stats is mounted to a *stationary* plate.
The exposure time of the photographic material is probably rather long
(several minutes?) so the camera has to be stationary to get sharp
pictures.
We cannot, I believe, thank Western Comics enough for maintaining such a
good archive of stats. Otherwise we would not have the excellent Kit Teler
reprints we have today.

Bill: Yes, indeed. I have worked with such camera. Sized of a small car and
placed in a dark room. It's just like Gary described. In older days nearly
all the pictures newspaper or magazine (etc.) used were made using this
kind of camera. Original picture was positioned under contact frame, under
glass. Image was exposured on photosensitive paper through lenses.
Photographs were processed using dotted "ben day" screens layed over
the photographic paper, to make them printable.
With black and white art, this was not necessary, of course.
I pressume Lunov Magnus Strip shot their stats in smaller size, to save the space.
If they had done them 1:1 there would be no sense at all.
Same camera was used to make printing films too. Negative films which were
used to make printer's plates. Maybe a word "stats" is used to mean these
films also?

John: I'm surprised that the abbreviation of "stats" for "statistics" is not
better known. It's almost universally used amongst my students. Strangely
enough, in Britain, "maths" is commonly used as a shorthand for "mathematics,"
yet this particular abridgement is virtually unknown in the States!

miha
Advanced Member

3628 Posts

Member since 05/05/2003

Posted - 12/05/2005 : 19:51:10

Ford: I always wondered how these dot screens were created before the advent
of the computer.
I know in b/w comics there are cels with different pre-printed dot
screens, which can simply be rubbed over the artwork by the artist. They
become part of the linework.

Bill: Yes that was most common thing with b/w newspaper strips.

Dortmund: Regarding "ben day" screens, I have seen handwritten directions on
Lunov Magnus Strip #4 originals where the artist has indicated areas
supposed to be dotted by "ben day". I assume it worked the same way
for the Zlatna Serija when "ben day" was used.
Bignotti and Gamba sometimes used plastic cells sheets, which
were cut into pieces and glued to the art. I guess it was then
painted with some liquid (or rubbed?) to expose the dotted pattern.
At least in 1950's Ferri originals, the borders of the plastic
do not always match the dotted areas. Does anybody here know anything
about the chemistry behind these processes or where to find out?
I've also been wondering about the chemistry behind craftint(?), the
procedure where two different solutions were used to expose
perpendicular sets of parallell lines in the paper, making it
possible for the artist to create wonderful patterns of dark and
lighter grays (depending on whether both liquids or only one were
applied to the same area).

Ford: But how did the printer create the colors from just three primary colors
by mixing little dots of varying sizes? Comics were not colored back
then but instead a number was written into the artwork which represented
a color of the (very limited) color spectrum. Was there a special
apparatus involved to translate this into color grids? Or was this done
manually by the printer?

Bill: There were young ladies as colorists (true!), who used either half
mechanical method or just by creating different layers of transparent dotted
cels cutting them with exacto knife (very sharp pen like knife).

miha
Advanced Member

3628 Posts

Member since 05/05/2003

Posted - 12/05/2005 : 19:51:37

Paul: Right, except for the "dotted" part. Layers, or overlays, were created
using either rubylith or amberlith (clear film coated on one side by
colored gel), that were then put on the camera and screened to create
dots - in their the proper density and angle for the particular printed
colors they were cut for. The trouble with this method is that one
overlay can only account for one value of one color. Another method,
and the one used by the last major traditional-method - that is,
pre-computer - comics color house in this country, Chemical Color, used
gray-toned "fluorgraphic" paints that could represent different values
of cyan, magenta, or yellow on one overlay. All comics in the U.S. prior
to the late 1970s were done this way, using a very limited palette;
in the last years of that era it was down to 64 colors.
Here in the States, for comics, the job of creating the mechanicals for
color reproduction was seen - and handled - as low-skilled, low-paying
work. And, yes, it was mainly done by women.

Bill: Each color had own separate layer: cyan ("blue"), magenta ("red"),
yellow and black (line art work).
That's where CMYK comes! (K= black Key film). They were
shot under photographic apparatus and made into films, which were then
combined together in printer.
Using different kind of dotted cels, varying density of dots (described as
percentage and quantity of dotted lines within an inch), you could create
different kind of colors.

Paul: In "the good ol' days" the color dot density was described as
lines-per-inch (lpi - a measure of vertical resolution that implies the
horizontal resolution), and Gladstone I comics interiors were done at
65 lpi. Very coarse, as most "quality" color printing started at 133
lpi! There was also the more explicit dots-per-inch (dpi), but today
it's all down to pixels-per-inch (ppi - though you still often see this
referred to, quite inaccurately, as dpi).

Bill: Usually different colors were identified with codes. You could create 16 to
256 colors at least this way, depending on how many different shades of each
separate colors were used.

Paul: You could call colors out as codes using CMY (reflective primary colors
- all printed matter is reflective), but not RGB (transmissive primary
colors - movie projection, tv and computer screens). Chemical Color,
however, used YRB - yellow, red, blue - designations, corresponding to
yellow, magenta, cyan. Consistency in terminology has never been on of
the publishing biz' strong suits.

Ford: Is there a list of the color codes used back then - with a translation
into current RGB/CMYK?
Did the color codes of the original printing survive? Or could they be
recreated from the printed books?

Bill: It's possible, it's hard work but it could be done with modern scanners.

miha
Advanced Member

3628 Posts

Member since 05/05/2003

Posted - 12/05/2005 : 19:51:53

Ford: Were all original Lunov Magnus Strip comics printed at one printing house?
If not: Do copies of the same run differe slightly? Did different printing houses
use different color codes?
Has there ever been some academic approach to chronicle the history of
(comics) printing? Are there museums where photostat cameras are
preserved?

Bill: There was somewhere on the net some articles about this. I wonder
where it was.

[/qvote]

miha
Advanced Member

3628 Posts

Member since 05/05/2003

Posted - 12/05/2005 : 19:53:04

uf ima puno strana ovaj esej

a ništa...

nastavice se...

sdragan@
Senior Member

Western Sahara
1780 Posts

Member since 01/05/2005

Posted - 12/05/2005 : 20:36:37

Ok.meni je jasno sledece;

Sumabatra je bio gladan;STOP;slusali su ga medvedi i zmije;STOP;potpalio je vatru;STOP;nekima je bio vidljiv a nekima ne;STOP;prolog,zaplet,epilog;STOP.

stinky
stripovi.com suradnik

Croatia
12713 Posts

Member since 29/12/2001

Posted - 12/05/2005 : 21:30:49

nemam vremena pregledavati cijelu stvar jer me usput zajebava širina osi x, a i ne znam u cemu je zapravo problem, nagadam da je problem u pitanju da li je trebalo docrtati fakira sumabatru (koji se u odredenim podrucjima bengala zove još i brahmaputra), no svakako želim reci da se odgovor može izreci matematicki, što ce biti najobjektivnije, ali ne i relevantno. naime, treba izmjeriti kut pod kojim se sumabatra nalazi u odnosu na referentne promatrace (teks i ostali), zatim izracunati vektor smjera u prostoru varijabli, statisticku znacajnost ova dva elementa i naposljetku algoritam nužnosti. kad to sve stavimo na graf ortonormalnih parsimonijskih tranformacija, dobicemo spektar vrijednosti za sve clanove promatranog skupa.

ludaci su me oduvijek voljeli...a i ja njih

Renky
stripovi.com suradnik

Croatia
11080 Posts

Member since 15/11/2002

Posted - 12/05/2005 : 22:01:14

Tex i ostali!!!!!! :o))))

Opaucila te os X ;o))

www.sd-gradac.hr ( nogomet )
www.gradac.hr

Edited by - Renky on 12/05/2005 22:17:46

miha
Advanced Member

3628 Posts

Member since 05/05/2003

Posted - 13/05/2005 : 15:39:00

quote:
treba izmjeriti kut pod kojim se sumabatra nalazi u odnosu na referentne promatrace

Zavidim vam na zapažanju, ali dozvolite mi da ja sad odlapam još malo o docrtanim detajlima u stripovima, ovaj put ce to biti greške na docrtanom detalju o cemu cu da pricam.

quote:
Jedino kaj smeta je loša povezanost originala i docrtanog djela!

Ovde imamo još jedno zapažanje, medutim neki od vas jednostavno si nisu uzeli dovoljno vrimena da bi uocili bitnu grešku, jer tako je samo na prvi pogled, dok ima jih nekoliko, tih grešaka, i njih cemo nazvati minusi. Vidi sliku sa minusima, ovi ce sad biti nabrojani u redosledu:

1. Prva i najvažnija greška, pogledajte velicinu docrtanog lika još jednom. Na nacin na koji je lik docrtan, taj daje utisak da je udaljen 10, 20 metara, a u tom slucaju crnac Ibrahim bi ga video, a nije. Tu nešto nije logicno u samoj prici. Zašto je docrtani lik nacrtan poluvidljiv je vrlo neobicno. A dobro, i Sumabatra je bio neobican lik... pa možemo tu grešku za trenutak zanemariti.
2. A drugi minus - Jedino kaj smeta je loša povezanost originala i docrtanog djela - tu se slažemo, vidi se iz daleka isprekidanost linija horizonta, brda, druge uzvišice, ravnice i sjenke konja i jahaca. To je višestruki minus i da sumiram, na pitanje "kako" je bio docrtan docrtani dio možemo odgovoriti - greškovito.

Na pitanje "kada", koje ustvari uopce nije toliko važno, bice odgovoreno u jednom od sledecih nastavaka, a na pitanje ce elektronskim putem odgovoriti autori docrtanog dela licno, to jest neki od njih iz redakcije koji su za ovu priliku iskopani iz interneta.

nastavice se...

...cim ispravim dužinu ose x koja se izdužila zbog slika. Umesto slika sad cu postaviti link do slika pa ce osa x biti opet po starom. Odmorite oci sada, stiže link do slike umesto slike.

sdragan@
Senior Member

Western Sahara
1780 Posts

Member since 01/05/2005

Posted - 13/05/2005 : 23:05:09

Ajmo jos nedelju dana lupati u lonce i poklopce!

sdragan@
Senior Member

Western Sahara
1780 Posts

Member since 01/05/2005

Posted - 13/05/2005 : 23:06:02

quote:
Originally posted by sdragan@

Gde je poenta u svemu tome?
Kome smeta takav detalj?
Kako to utice na plimu i oseku Japanskog mora?
Sta o tom slucaju misli Sveta stolica?

miha
Advanced Member

3628 Posts

Member since 05/05/2003

Posted - 21/05/2005 : 00:42:59

quote:
Originally posted by sdragan@

quote:
Originally posted by sdragan@

Gde je poenta u svemu tome?
Kome smeta takav detalj?
Kako to utice na plimu i oseku Japanskog mora?
Sta o tom slucaju misli Sveta stolica?

što sad tebe sve muci covece...
pa zar nisi moga manje pitanja postaviti, kako cu sad na sve to odgovorit, pa iam samo 10 prstiju za kucanje?
jednostavno previše si mi pitanja postavio

sledeci put cu odgovoriti na neka pitanja
nego sutra cu možda ispricati nešto o sumabatri iz tog stripa, setio sam se nekih finih detajla u vezi teme iz naslova topika. naravno ako mi se bude pisalo

seinfeld
Advanced Member

16500 Posts

Member since 04/11/2001