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seinfeld
Advanced Member
16500 Posts
Member since 04/11/2001 |
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manhunter
Moderator
Switzerland
25109 Posts
Member since 17/09/2004 |
 Posted - 23/09/2011 : 14:22:13
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Ja sam u fizici ostao na srednjoškolskom nivou, ali me ta nauka oduvek zanimala.
Pa me zanima da li ipak moguce ovo što tvrdi jedan od posetilaca B92: "Pre ce biti da se cestica kretala pod svetlosnom brzinom jer matematika ne laže (verovali ili ne), ali je prostor u kome se kretala promenio osobine pa su merni instrumenti izmerili ono što mi vidimo kao posmatraci. " ? |
I am legion. I do not forget. I do not forgive.
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selanne
stripovi.com suradnik
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Bosnia and Herzegovina
7644 Posts
Member since 11/09/2009 |
Posted - 23/09/2011 : 14:30:26
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| To je moguce, apsolutno. Postoje šanse i da je pronadena tvar koja se krece brže od svjetlosti, jer smo svjedoci koliko je otkrica u zadnje vrijeme za koje bi covjek koji je živio prije sto godina rekao da apsolutno nisu moguca. Ipak, i u osnovnoj fizici postoje stvari koje su relativne, pa i ceste, a ne bi rekli da su moguce (npr., da idete unazad, a ustvari se pomicete naprijed), tako da sam bliži ovoj teoriji koju je citirao manhunter. |
Where other men blindly follow the truth, remember - nothing is true. Where other men are limited by morality or law, remember - everything is permitted. We work in the dark to serve the light. We are assassins! Nothing is true, everything is permitted. |
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selanne
stripovi.com suradnik
Bosnia and Herzegovina
7644 Posts
Member since 11/09/2009 |
Posted - 23/09/2011 : 14:32:48
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| Ako se vozite u vlaku brzinom 20 m/s, a vi se krecete u smjeru suprotnom kretanju vlaka(unazad) brzinom 10 m/s, ici cete naprijed iako koracate unazad. Dakle, krecete se u jednom smjeru, a idete u drugom jer je prostor oko vas promijenio osobine. |
Where other men blindly follow the truth, remember - nothing is true. Where other men are limited by morality or law, remember - everything is permitted. We work in the dark to serve the light. We are assassins! Nothing is true, everything is permitted. |
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selanne
stripovi.com suradnik
Bosnia and Herzegovina
7644 Posts
Member since 11/09/2009 |
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seinfeld
Advanced Member
16500 Posts
Member since 04/11/2001 |
Posted - 23/09/2011 : 14:40:34
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quote:
Originally posted by manhunter
Ja sam u fizici ostao na srednjoškolskom nivou, ali me ta nauka oduvek zanimala.
Pa me zanima da li ipak moguce ovo što tvrdi jedan od posetilaca B92: "Pre ce biti da se cestica kretala pod svetlosnom brzinom jer matematika ne laže (verovali ili ne), ali je prostor u kome se kretala promenio osobine pa su merni instrumenti izmerili ono što mi vidimo kao posmatraci. " ?
If neutrinos are traveling faster than light speed, then one of the most fundamental assumptions of science — that the rules of physics are the same for all observers — would be invalidated.
They can measure the time of the trip to within 10 nanoseconds, and they have seen the effect in more than 16,000 events measured over the past two years.
Sutra u CERN-u ce biti prezentacija ovog "otkrica" a rezultati ce biti postavljeni na ArXiv.org.
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"I'm not saying I'm Batman. I'm just saying nobody has ever seen me and Batman in a room together." |
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seinfeld
Advanced Member
16500 Posts
Member since 04/11/2001 |
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Lord Vader89
stripovi.com suradnik
France
9590 Posts
Member since 05/07/2007 |
Posted - 23/09/2011 : 14:44:26
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quote:
Originally posted by manhunter
Ja sam u fizici ostao na srednjoškolskom nivou, ali me ta nauka oduvek zanimala.
Pa me zanima da li ipak moguce ovo što tvrdi jedan od posetilaca B92: "Pre ce biti da se cestica kretala pod svetlosnom brzinom jer matematika ne laže (verovali ili ne), ali je prostor u kome se kretala promenio osobine pa su merni instrumenti izmerili ono što mi vidimo kao posmatraci. " ?
moguce, prema nekim teoreticarima
ali uvek sam imao utisak da se ti (hipoteticki) regioni nalaze, ono, somewhere in deep space :D |
Potpis u dva reda, prema pravilniku:
Vader je, kao i uvek, u pravu. ; john connor ; 2022 A.D. |
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manhunter
Moderator
Switzerland
25109 Posts
Member since 17/09/2004 |
Posted - 23/09/2011 : 14:44:46
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| Još uvek je sve relativno. Možda od ove zajebancije u CERN-u ispadne još neka cestica koja se još brže krece ili nešto slicno. ;-) |
I am legion. I do not forget. I do not forgive.
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seinfeld
Advanced Member
16500 Posts
Member since 04/11/2001 |
Posted - 23/09/2011 : 14:47:06
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| In 2007, the Main Injector Neutrino Oscillation Search (MINOS) experiment in Minnesota saw neutrinos from the particle-physics facility Fermilab in Illinois arriving slightly ahead of schedule. At the time, the MINOS team downplayed the result, in part because there was too much uncertainty in the detector's exact position to be sure of its significance, says Jenny Thomas, a spokeswoman for the experiment. Thomas says that MINOS was already planning more accurate follow-up experiments before the latest OPERA result. |
"I'm not saying I'm Batman. I'm just saying nobody has ever seen me and Batman in a room together." |
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seinfeld
Advanced Member
16500 Posts
Member since 04/11/2001 |
Posted - 23/09/2011 : 14:48:53
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quote:
Originally posted by manhunter
Još uvek je sve relativno. Možda od ove zajebancije u CERN-u ispadne još neka cestica koja se još brže krece ili nešto slicno. ;-)
Konacno nesto korisno da stigne iz CH :-)!! |
"I'm not saying I'm Batman. I'm just saying nobody has ever seen me and Batman in a room together." |
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manhunter
Moderator
Switzerland
25109 Posts
Member since 17/09/2004 |
Posted - 23/09/2011 : 14:50:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Vader89
moguce, prema nekim teoreticarima
ali uvek sam imao utisak da se ti (hipoteticki) regioni nalaze, ono, somewhere in deep space :D
Ja sam mislio da se pri kretanju brzinom svetlosti prostor i vreme menjaju. Ili tako nešto slicno? Tako da bi teoretski i ovde moglo da se radi o tome.
Ili to samo važi za deep space? Ufff, moracu ponovo da ogledam Star Wars Trek...
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I am legion. I do not forget. I do not forgive.
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Lord Vader89
stripovi.com suradnik
France
9590 Posts
Member since 05/07/2007 |
Posted - 23/09/2011 : 15:16:41
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nene, to je samo ono da se prostor pred tobom sabija, tako nesto
a da vreme protice sporije
(kako se priblizavas brzini svetlosti)
sve je to staro vec :D |
Potpis u dva reda, prema pravilniku:
Vader je, kao i uvek, u pravu. ; john connor ; 2022 A.D. |
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zeljko
Advanced Member
Bosnia and Herzegovina
17749 Posts
Member since 02/08/2002 |
Posted - 23/09/2011 : 15:31:01
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vidio sam vijest i samo sam se nasmijao
kao i na vecinu stvari danas koje dolaze iz znanstvenih krugova preko medija |
Utabanim stazama ocaja! |
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DeeCay
stripovi.com suradnik
Croatia
21661 Posts
Member since 24/09/2002 |
Posted - 23/09/2011 : 15:31:46
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Ne kužim se ni ja previše u slicne teorije, no ocito to i nije stara teorija o neutrinima. Ovo je iz wikipedije preko linka što je seinfeld stavio, o brzini neutrina. Vec se prije sugeriralo da putuju brzinom svjetlosti, a pod nekim okolnostima (kod visokih energija - što god to tocno znacilo) i brže. A sad su i dokazali. Ocito i zakon relativnosti funkcionira samo unutar nekih uvjeta/parametara.
Before the idea of neutrino oscillations came up, it was generally assumed that neutrinos travel at the speed of light. The question of neutrino velocity is closely related to their mass. According to relativity, if neutrinos are massless, they must travel at the speed of light. However, if they carry a mass, they cannot reach the speed of light.
In the early 1980s, first measurements of neutrino speed were done using pulsed pion beams (produced by pulsed proton beams hitting a target). The pions decayed producing neutrinos, and the neutrino interactions observed within a time window in a detector at a distance were consistent with the speed of light. This measurement has been repeated using the MINOS detectors, which found the speed of 3 GeV neutrinos to be 1.000051(29) c. While the central value is higher than the speed of light, the uncertainty is great enough that it is very likely that the true velocity is not greater than the speed of light. This measurement set an upper bound on the mass of the muon neutrino of 50 MeV at 99% confidence.[27]
The same observation was made, on a somewhat larger scale, with supernova 1987a. The neutrinos from the supernova were detected within a time window that was consistent with a speed of light for the neutrinos. So far, the question of neutrino masses cannot be decided based on measurements of the neutrino speed.
Even though supernova observations indicate that neutrinos propagate at the speed of light, it is not clear whether this result holds at higher energies. In particular, in the context of the Standard-Model Extension,[28][29][30] a realistic effective theory that includes Lorentz invariance violations, neutrinos experience Lorentz-violating oscillations and can travel faster than light at high energies.
In September 2011 the OPERA collaboration released data suggesting that neutrinos can travel faster than the speed of light.[31][32] They find that muon neutrinos, sent from CERN to LNGS, with an average energy of 17 GeV, arrive 60.7 ns earlier than what is expected by assuming the speed of light in vacuum. This indicates that neutrinos would be 1.0000248 times faster than light, with a significance of 6 standard deviations. |
“A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies; the man who never reads lives only one." |
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paro
stripovi.com suradnik
Croatia
8553 Posts
Member since 30/03/2005 |
Posted - 23/09/2011 : 15:48:31
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quote:
Originally posted by zeljko
vidio sam vijest i samo sam se nasmijao
kao i na vecinu stvari danas koje dolaze iz znanstvenih krugova preko medija
Slažem se. Ne vjerujem ja nikome dok to Crkva ne potvrdi da je istina. :D |
There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.
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seinfeld
Advanced Member
16500 Posts
Member since 04/11/2001 |
Posted - 23/09/2011 : 19:26:50
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Evo paper-a:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1109.4897v1
http://press.web.cern.ch/press/PressReleases/Releases2011/PR19.11E.html
http://arxiv.org/abs/1109.4897
Conclusions
The OPERA detector at LNGS, designed for the study of neutrino oscillations in
appearance mode, has provided a precision measurement of the neutrino velocity over the 730 km
baseline of the CNGS neutrino beam sent from CERN to LNGS through the Earth’s crust. A time
of flight measurement with small systematic uncertainties was made possible by a series of
accurate metrology techniques. The data analysis took also advantage of a large sample of about
16000 neutrino interaction events detected by OPERA.
The analysis of internal neutral current and charged current events, and external ?µ CC
interactions from the 2009, 2010 and 2011 CNGS data was carried out to measure the neutrino
velocity. The sensitivity of the measurement of (v-c)/c is about one order of magnitude better
than previous accelerator neutrino experiments.
The results of the study indicate for CNGS muon neutrinos with an average energy of 17
GeV an early neutrino arrival time with respect to the one computed by assuming the speed of
light in vacuum:
dt = (60.7 ± 6.9 (stat.) ± 7.4 (sys.)) ns.
The corresponding relative difference of the muon neutrino velocity and the speed of light
is:
(v-c)/c = dt /(TOF’c - dt) = (2.48 ± 0.28 (stat.) ± 0.30 (sys.)) ×10-5.
with an overall significance of 6.0 s.
The dependence of dt on the neutrino energy was also investigated. For this analysis the
data set was limited to the 5489 ?µ CC interactions occurring in the OPERA target. A
measurement performed by considering all ?µ CC internal events yielded dt = (60.3 ± 13.1 (stat.)
± 7.4 (sys.)) ns, for an average neutrino energy of 28.1 GeV. The sample was then split into two
bins of nearly equal statistics, taking events of energy higher or lower than 20 GeV. The results
for the low- and high-energy samples are, respectively, dt = (53.1 ± 18.8 (stat.).) ± 7.4 (sys.)) ns
and (67.1 ± 18.2 (stat.).) ± 7.4 (sys.)) ns. This provides no clues on a possible energy dependence
of dt in the domain explored by OPERA within the accuracy of the measurement.
Despite the large significance of the measurement reported here and the stability of the
analysis, the potentially great impact of the result motivates the continuation of our studies in
order to investigate possible still unknown systematic effects that could explain the observed
anomaly. We deliberately do not attempt any theoretical or phenomenological interpretation of
the results.
Abstract
The OPERA neutrino experiment at the underground Gran Sasso Laboratory has measured the
velocity of neutrinos from the CERN CNGS beam over a baseline of about 730 km with much higher
accuracy than previous studies conducted with accelerator neutrinos. The measurement is based on highstatistics
data taken by OPERA in the years 2009, 2010 and 2011. Dedicated upgrades of the CNGS
timing system and of the OPERA detector, as well as a high precision geodesy campaign for the
measurement of the neutrino baseline, allowed reaching comparable systematic and statistical accuracies.
An early arrival time of CNGS muon neutrinos with respect to the one computed assuming the speed of
light in vacuum of (60.7 ± 6.9 (stat.) ± 7.4 (sys.)) ns was measured. This anomaly corresponds to a relative
difference of the muon neutrino velocity with respect to the speed of light (v-c)/c = (2.48 ± 0.28 (stat.) ±
0.30 (sys.)) ×10-5.
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"I'm not saying I'm Batman. I'm just saying nobody has ever seen me and Batman in a room together." |
Edited by - seinfeld on 23/09/2011 19:30:53 |
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zeljko
Advanced Member
Bosnia and Herzegovina
17749 Posts
Member since 02/08/2002 |
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paro
stripovi.com suradnik
Croatia
8553 Posts
Member since 30/03/2005 |
Posted - 24/09/2011 : 16:30:42
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quote:
Originally posted by zeljko
homoseksualni dvojac nije shvatio poruku jos jednom :D
cekaj željac, dal ti to izravno vrijedaš mene i lwooda?
Meni se cini da prema svim pravilima ovog foruma zaslužuješ ban cist ko suza...ili možda cekaš da ti Sv.Ante javi šta je pravilno za napravit u tvom slucaju?
:D
:D |
There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.
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manhunter
Moderator
Switzerland
25109 Posts
Member since 17/09/2004 |
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KRAS
Advanced Member
.jpg)
Slovenia
7774 Posts
Member since 18/05/2003 |
Posted - 24/09/2011 : 17:20:36
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ovo je zanimlja tema, samo.... jebo vas taj engleski ja bi zamolio moderatore da zabrane postavljanje kopiranih tekstova na engleskom jeziku, jer to stvarno nema smisla |
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zeljko
Advanced Member
Bosnia and Herzegovina
17749 Posts
Member since 02/08/2002 |
Posted - 24/09/2011 : 17:51:30
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kako vas nije sramota djecu sam morao u susjednu sobu odvesti :D
htio sam naglasiti krajem osamdesetih je bila jedna serija BEYOND 2000
do sada smo trebali reiješiti problem gladi prenapucenosti ratova automobilskih udesa
kolonije na marsu su trebale biti u usponu automobili su trebali letjeti
životni vijek je trebao biti produžena na 100+ godina bla bla bla truc
sve su to stvari koje su naucnici PREDVIDJELI i rekli da je tako
u meduvremenu sam i cuo da je teleportacija na nivou atoma tojest cestica unutra moguca
evo sad i brza brzina :D svjetlosti prevazidena
a profa fizike veli da je u našoj galaksiji najbrža svjetlost i iznosi 300 000 km s
a znamo da ima makro i mikro kosmos :D
važi li ova probijena brzina svjetlosti za naš kosmos... ne zanimaju me cestice...
s druge strane ne vjerujem da ce za naših života doci do kojeg otkrica koji ce promijeniti nacin života vecine stanovnika planete...
ova vijest mi je bitna isto ko bombardiranje jupitera 1994.
bit ce fascinirano nekoliko naucnika i to je to
a sutra isti problemi
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Utabanim stazama ocaja! |
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paro
stripovi.com suradnik
Croatia
8553 Posts
Member since 30/03/2005 |
Posted - 24/09/2011 : 22:45:18
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quote:
Originally posted by zeljko
kako vas nije sramota djecu sam morao u susjednu sobu odvesti :D
Ciju?
htio sam naglasiti krajem osamdesetih je bila jedna serija BEYOND 2000
do sada smo trebali reiješiti problem gladi prenapucenosti ratova automobilskih udesa
kolonije na marsu su trebale biti u usponu automobili su trebali letjeti
životni vijek je trebao biti produžena na 100+ godina bla bla bla truc
sve su to stvari koje su naucnici PREDVIDJELI i rekli da je tako
u meduvremenu sam i cuo da je teleportacija na nivou atoma tojest cestica unutra moguca
evo sad i brza brzina :D svjetlosti prevazidena
a profa fizike veli da je u našoj galaksiji najbrža svjetlost i iznosi 300 000 km s
a znamo da ima makro i mikro kosmos :D
važi li ova probijena brzina svjetlosti za naš kosmos... ne zanimaju me cestice...
s druge strane ne vjerujem da ce za naših života doci do kojeg otkrica koji ce promijeniti nacin života vecine stanovnika planete...
ova vijest mi je bitna isto ko bombardiranje jupitera 1994.
bit ce fascinirano nekoliko naucnika i to je to
a sutra isti problemi
Eh sad si ga pretjerao. kako nije došlo do otkrica? Cijela 2. polovica 20. st. je jedno ogromno otkrice. Evo ti samo zadnjih 30 godina, internet i mobiteli zbog kojih se životni tempo ubrzao za nekih 500%. Problem ratova i gladi se može riješit bez problema, samo što su ljudi uglavnom svinje, pa imaju neke druge interese. Leteci automobil imaš, dosta se pisalo zadnjih mjeseci o tome. Evo ti odmah prvi link na koji sam naišo. Ali trebat ce hrpetina dozvola za tako nešto.
http://granitegeek.org/blog/2009/06/04/flying-car-takes-the-next-step-so-to-speak/
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There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.
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lwood
Advanced Member
Colombia
47009 Posts
Member since 09/12/2005 |
Posted - 24/09/2011 : 22:48:59
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ma pusti ga,visi po cili dan na glasu koncila pa ne prati znanstvena dostignuca  |
depresivni iskompleksirani primitivac i nadrkana budala kojeg financira stari i koji sa skoro 50 godina nema ni žene ni posla.Pa naravno da je ljut na sve, a narocito na one koji su uspješni.
Jbga Lwoode nisam ti ja kriv kaj nisi uspio u životu |
Edited by - lwood on 24/09/2011 22:49:36 |
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lwood
Advanced Member
Colombia
47009 Posts
Member since 09/12/2005 |
Posted - 24/09/2011 : 22:50:59
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prije samo 10 godina vecina ljudi nije imala ni mobitel ni kompic a danas su toliko navuceni na to , da bi da im ih recimo oduzmeš uginili od tuge.
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depresivni iskompleksirani primitivac i nadrkana budala kojeg financira stari i koji sa skoro 50 godina nema ni žene ni posla.Pa naravno da je ljut na sve, a narocito na one koji su uspješni.
Jbga Lwoode nisam ti ja kriv kaj nisi uspio u životu |
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paro
stripovi.com suradnik
Croatia
8553 Posts
Member since 30/03/2005 |
Posted - 24/09/2011 : 22:53:16
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quote:
Originally posted by lwood
ma pusti ga,visi po cili dan na glasu koncila pa ne prati znanstvena dostignuca
Pa cinjenica je da se svaki mjesec otkrije neešto novo. Pa otkrivaju se novi ljudki preci svako malo...genetika je još uvijek takoreci ?mlada? znanost. Ma što ce se još otkrit za našeg života, pa to su cuda...ako nas ne podere apokalipsa krajem 2012. |
There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.
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