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alexts
Senior Member



Serbia
2749 Posts

Member since 25/09/2005

Posted - 11/05/2020 :  21:59:49  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send alexts a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jozzinelli


Dobro, nije tu ništa drastično menjano po pitanju kadriranja, samo što je crtež znatno kvalitetniji u kasnijoj verziji u Tik-Taku.



Jozzinelli, baš se ne razumeš u neke stvari?
Crtež u drugoj verziji je još lošiji, sa dodatnim greškama.
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alexts
Senior Member



Serbia
2749 Posts

Member since 25/09/2005

Posted - 11/05/2020 :  22:07:48  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send alexts a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A Sten ispravlja Buscemu u kompoziciji?!

Počinjem da menjam mišljenje o njemu, izgleda da je poznavao medij još mnogo bolje nego što se misli.

Edited by - alexts on 11/05/2020 22:20:42
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Jozzinelli
Average Member



790 Posts

Member since 10/04/2011

Posted - 12/05/2020 :  18:20:38  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send Jozzinelli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by alexts

Jozzinelli, baš se ne razumeš u neke stvari?
Crtež u drugoj verziji je još lošiji, sa dodatnim greškama.



Pa ja nisam crtač...

Druga verzija je lepša ako posmatramo samo crtež kao crtež (i kolor), a te greške u režiji, kadriranju, proporcijama i slično,
takve stručne kritike prepuštam vama koji crt(k)ate... Šteta samo što sve to teorijsko znanje ne mora da znači mnogo u praksi.
Lepota je u oku posmatrača, džaba da sve bude po "pe-esu" ako mi se ne sviđa crtački stil.

Uostalom, navedi koje su to sve greške u drugoj verziji, da otvoriš oči i nama laicima, i šta tačno podrazumevaš pod "lošiji"?
Hoćeš da kažeš da je ovaj kadar gde je Mirko prišao Švabi iza leđa dobro nacrtan? Nema šanse.
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alexts
Senior Member



Serbia
2749 Posts

Member since 25/09/2005

Posted - 12/05/2020 :  18:46:35  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send alexts a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jozzinelli



Uostalom, navedi koje su to sve greške u drugoj verziji, da otvoriš oči i nama laicima, i šta tačno podrazumevaš pod "lošiji"?
Hoćeš da kažeš da je ovaj kadar gde je Mirko prišao Švabi iza leđa dobro nacrtan? Nema šanse.



Ne znam kako da ti objasnim - u drugom primeru (mada ima i u prvom toga) crtač konstantno zaokreće kameru za ~180°, pri tome preskačući liniju koja spaja protivnike (linija pucnjeva) i to nekad i oko istog lika (likova) i stalno zbunjuje čitaoca.

Edited by - alexts on 12/05/2020 19:00:29
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Tonto
Advanced Member



3970 Posts

Member since 11/02/2012

Posted - 12/05/2020 :  19:01:33  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send Tonto a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Doslovno ne znaš tko koga, odakle, kako, što i zašto...

The less I have the more I am a happy man
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Jozzinelli
Average Member



790 Posts

Member since 10/04/2011

Posted - 12/05/2020 :  20:06:12  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send Jozzinelli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dobro, to je jasno, i Vlaadisha je to pomenuo, mislio sam da ćeš da navedeš bar još nekoliko razloga.
Pa, možda me to jeste zbunjivalo kad sam čitao kao dete,
čini mi se da sam tad češće primećivao i razne scenarističke nelogičnosti u stripovima,
al' sam u međuvremenu oguglao na takve stvari, ako nije baš nešto drastično.
U ovom slučaju, ta promena kamere je nedovoljan razlog da bih rekao da je crtež u drugoj verziji lošiji.

Dakle, glavna razlika u ove dve verzije jesu ti kadrovi pucanja snajperiste na njih
i Mirkovog pucanja na njega (kao što i glasi tema - "ista meta, drugo odstojanje" ),
ne zna se da li je Buin imao nekog učešća u tim izmenama ili je za kompletnu novu verziju bio zadužen drugi crtač...
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alexts
Senior Member



Serbia
2749 Posts

Member since 25/09/2005

Posted - 12/05/2020 :  22:15:37  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send alexts a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jozzinelli


U ovom slučaju, ta promena kamere je nedovoljan razlog da bih rekao da je crtež u drugoj verziji lošiji.



To je dovoljan razlog da niko ne bi trebalo danas (ni onda) da objavi takav strip, jer na malo prostora sadrži više primera - kako ne treba crtati strip.
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Jozzinelli
Average Member



790 Posts

Member since 10/04/2011

Posted - 12/05/2020 :  22:58:10  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send Jozzinelli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Pa danas neće niko ni da objavi takav strip, nije više u modi, jbg
Osim ako se neki izdavač ne odluči za integral Mirka i Slavka, zbog istorijskog značaja za domaću scenu...

A da li je onda trebalo da se objavi, to je već kompleksno pitanje.
Tada je bila bitnija tematika, koga je bilo briga za liniju pucanja...
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Jozzinelli
Average Member



790 Posts

Member since 10/04/2011

Posted - 13/05/2020 :  00:16:53  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send Jozzinelli a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Evo još jednog domaćeg stripa u 2 verzije, i opet nije naveden autor za ovu drugu.
Zbog toga sam imao nameru i ranije da u nekom topiku postavim pitanje u vezi ovog stripa.
Prva verzija je objavljena u Politikinom Zabavniku br. 1912, avgusta 1988, kompletan autor je, kako stoji, Grujica Milovanović.
Ne znam da li postoji negde nešto više podataka o njemu, čini mi se da ga nema ni u onoj enciklopediji, koju je objavio Omnibus/Modesty.
Ako je on scenarista stripa, znači da je dao i nekom drugom crtaču da odradi isti strip.
Ta druga verzija je objavljena u Gigantu broj 50, marta 1989.
Opet nema velike razlike u konkretnim zajedničkim kadrovima, koji su na isti način odrađeni u obe verzije,
ali se razlikuju table, druga ima mnogo više kadrova, priča je detaljnija i duža, na 24 table,
dok je prva sažeta na svega 8 tabli, a prva i deo poslednje table su scene prepričavanja starijeg Nika svojih doživljaja,
čega nema u onoj drugoj verziji.



Ovu tablu sam ubacio čisto da se vidi kako izgleda taj uvod u priču.
Za one koji ne znaju ćirilicu:
"Beograd je u 2008. godini ličio na veliku svetsku metropolu sa svim svojim pozitivnim i negativnim osobinama...
Za razliku od ostalih svetskih velegrada, život u Beogradu je bio neuporedivo mirniji i bezbrižniji...
To je privuklo i mnoge strance..."





Ima li neko ideju ko je nacrtao ovu drugu verziju?



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alexts
Senior Member



Serbia
2749 Posts

Member since 25/09/2005

Posted - 13/05/2020 :  02:16:13  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send alexts a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Grujica Milovanović - pravo ime Aleksandar Milovanović. Da li ima neke veze sa pisanim romanima Buč Kasidi i Kid - nejasno (pisac naveden: Teks Gordon).

Jedna verzija je bukvalno precrtavana od druge - moguće je da je reč o istom autoru, koji je prerađivao svoj strip.
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Vlaadisha
Senior Member



USA
2172 Posts

Member since 21/07/2004

Posted - 13/05/2020 :  15:56:41  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send Vlaadisha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by alexts

quote:
Originally posted by Jozzinelli


U ovom slučaju, ta promena kamere je nedovoljan razlog da bih rekao da je crtež u drugoj verziji lošiji.



To je dovoljan razlog da niko ne bi trebalo danas (ni onda) da objavi takav strip, jer na malo prostora sadrži više primera - kako ne treba crtati strip.

prestrog si mogao je samo obrnuti par slika
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Vlaadisha
Senior Member



USA
2172 Posts

Member since 21/07/2004

Posted - 13/05/2020 :  16:01:29  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send Vlaadisha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by alexts

Grujica Milovanović - pravo ime Aleksandar Milovanović. Da li ima neke veze sa pisanim romanima Buč Kasidi i Kid - nejasno (pisac naveden: Teks Gordon).

Jedna verzija je bukvalno precrtavana od druge - moguće je da je reč o istom autoru, koji je prerađivao svoj strip.

Ima u knjizi 60 godina stripa u Srbiji jedna tabla stripa BK&K ali nikakvih podataka o autoru. Što je najbolje, čini mi se nije potpisan ni kao Aleksandar ni kao Grujica nego Malisha. Onlajn spiskovi kažu da je gore isti autor.



Stil liči na drugu verziju, isto je tako messy (da prostiš na izrazu).

Dobar mu je ovaj Beograd Na Vodi!
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ridiculus
New Member



141 Posts

Member since 11/06/2008

Posted - 17/05/2020 :  21:00:53  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send ridiculus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Malo da oživimo temu.

Možda ovo nije velika promena - svakako nije u tehničkom smislu - ali je veoma česta vrsta promene.



Iz Atari Force #3, spleš strana, 1984. Crtao olovkom Garcia-Lopez, a Ricardo Villagran tuširao. Evo kako je to izgledalo u olovci:



Nemam bolju sliku, ali mislim da se vidi sve što je potrebno.

"Muzika iz ovog filma je odlicna, ali je napravljena za neki drugi film."
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Vlaadisha
Senior Member



USA
2172 Posts

Member since 21/07/2004

Posted - 21/05/2020 :  02:28:28  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send Vlaadisha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
još jedan primer za tušera... williamsonu se nije svidelo kako je kriegstein interpretirao njegovu olovku, pa je frazetta odradio sve ponovo. grešim ili su inkeri potpisali williamsona? kakav to mora biti mindfuck da se potpisuješ za drugog autora.





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Vlaadisha
Senior Member



USA
2172 Posts

Member since 21/07/2004

Posted - 21/05/2020 :  02:30:01  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send Vlaadisha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
iz drugog topica: sličan kadar dva različita autora u istoj epizodi

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Vlaadisha
Senior Member



USA
2172 Posts

Member since 21/07/2004

Posted - 21/05/2020 :  02:32:14  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send Vlaadisha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
isti autor, drugačija postavka iste strane

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Vlaadisha
Senior Member



USA
2172 Posts

Member since 21/07/2004

Posted - 21/05/2020 :  02:34:33  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send Vlaadisha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
prva naslovna odbijena jer se ne vidi nijedan junak

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Vlaadisha
Senior Member



USA
2172 Posts

Member since 21/07/2004

Posted - 21/05/2020 :  02:37:58  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send Vlaadisha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
prvi put cenzurisano, drugi put nije


Edited by - Vlaadisha on 21/05/2020 02:38:39
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Vlaadisha
Senior Member



USA
2172 Posts

Member since 21/07/2004

Posted - 21/05/2020 :  02:42:37  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send Vlaadisha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
a ovo bi moglo da se zove druga meta, isto odstojanje
crtač preradio stare table betmena u kapetana

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Vlaadisha
Senior Member



USA
2172 Posts

Member since 21/07/2004

Posted - 21/05/2020 :  02:45:05  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send Vlaadisha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
drugačiji kolor (levo) daje novo čitanje starom stripu

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Shaner
Advanced Member

Croatia
3331 Posts

Member since 24/09/2012

Posted - 21/05/2020 :  07:40:21  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send Shaner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Vlaadisha

prvi put cenzurisano, drugi put nije




Stvarno su nevjerojatni ti Amerikanci.

Inače, svaka čast na topicu! Nemam baš toliko znanja da bih sudjelovao, ali redovito pratim.


http://onlineimpressions.blogspot.com/
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lwood
Advanced Member



Colombia
40998 Posts

Member since 09/12/2005

Posted - 21/05/2020 :  07:58:44  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send lwood a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by izivko

Uh, ovaj Mitrovićev Tarzan je moćan, opak, misteriozan, njegovi pokreti, pogled, urlik - grom gromova.
Iskreno, više mi se svidio od Kerčevog.



Ovo na panteri više pari produžni kabel nego rep.

“The flows of energy and mineral nutrients through an ecosystem manifest themselves as actual animals and plants of a particular species”.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


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Mr. Bushido
stripovi.com suradnik



Croatia
11780 Posts

Member since 23/09/2005

Posted - 26/05/2020 :  22:31:06  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send Mr. Bushido a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Vlaadisha

drugačiji kolor (levo) daje novo čitanje starom stripu




Kad smo kod drukčijeg kolora, evo što je José Villarrubia objavio na Facebooku o koloru stripa Silver Surfer: Parable.

quote:


From a colorist’s perspective:

Jean Giraud should need no introduction: he was one of the true genius of comics and fantasy illustration and his work continues to inspire generations. Being French, he was used to very good reproduction for his work, both as Gir (Blueberry) and Moebius (Metal Hurlant). In 1988, when he agreed to draw an American comic book mini-series for the first and only time, his main incentive was to have his work reproduced in newsprint and with the old-fashioned coloring system that was still used. Giraud himself with John Wellington colored this version and it was beautiful. Not long after, it was reprinted in slick white paper and recolored. My friend Mark Chiarello with John Wellinton again did a great, sensitive reinterpretation

And then a few years ago Claire Champebal recolored it again, I do not know if under Giraud’ supervision or not. These new colors have been featured in new large format European editions. They are shocking to say the least. Whereas the two previous versions took into consideration the narrative rhythm and poetic quality of the line art, this new edition pumps up the volume to the nth degree. See the example bellow: value hierarchy goes out the window, color temperature is arbitrary, and to make matters worse, gutters (space around the panels) and word balloons are colored in bright colors that blend with the images. I am sorry but it is an eyesore. I am holding on to the previous editions.



Na što se nadovezao Lovern Kindzierski:

quote:
A long time ago when Jean interviewed me to work for him he showed me the Silver Surfer comics and asked me what I thought of the colour. I told him that I knew that he coloured it and had the comics in my collection. He smiled and asked me what I thought of the colour. I told him that I thought that it didn't work. He asked me why and I told him that I thought there was problems with tonality and value. I liked the essential colours but they were off. I could feel the cold sweat running down my ribs. Not only had I criticized his colour but I had done it in front of Harvey Kurtzman and Terry Gilliam. I was ready for a dressing down. Jean smiled and told me that I was absolutely correct. He was not happy with the reproduction of his guides. He had attached PMS number tags to his guides and was hot happy that they weren't followed. I explained to him the old colour separation method employed then and he was surprised that his book had not been allowed the full range of the old system and better follow his guides. I had not talked to him after the book that Mark worked on, but I always felt that he would have been much happier to see the full painted range of colour and the much more successful palette.


Kao i Mark Chiarello:

quote:
Jean told me he liked the painted (blue line color) that John Wellington and I did for the hardcover quite a bit, and gave me a drawing to thank me for it.


Cijela rasprava je dostupna ovdje:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10163556033280117&set=a.10163251815750117&type=3&theater

A ovdje možete vidjeti table u boljoj veličini.

https://i.imgur.com/WSZGdLz.jpg

Comics is any art you can read. -- Sean T. Collins
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jaki
Advanced Member



Croatia
16049 Posts

Member since 13/03/2004

Posted - 26/05/2020 :  22:40:31  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send jaki a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ubij me ali se meni sviđa i ova zadnja boja

Ja sam fetišist papira!

Edited by - jaki on 26/05/2020 22:43:04
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jaki
Advanced Member



Croatia
16049 Posts

Member since 13/03/2004

Posted - 26/05/2020 :  23:25:38  Show Profile Show Extended Profile  Send jaki a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Comicon Br.1,Sky Comics 1990 g.(Miličević)

Ja sam fetišist papira!
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